22 May 26 Guest Denise Duffield Thomas
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[00:00:00] Okay, so I'm so excited because today I have Denise Duffield Thomas with us, and Denise is a money guru, and I'm, I'm not kidding. She's internet money expert royalty. I. So I am beyond chuffed to have her, and she just raised her eyes at me. And that's maybe I'm a, you know, prone to hyperbole sometimes. , But Denise is a money mindset guru and her signature program Money Bootcamp.
I hope she'll share more with us about that during the episode. I. And she's also a speaker, the author of a number of books, including My Favorite, which is How I Came into Her World, which is called Get Rich Lucky Bitch. , She's a ballerina. I'll ask her about that. And all around top-notch human being.
So Denise, I'm so excited to have you here. Welcome to the business of Executive Coaching. Well, thank you so much for having me. I think we could have chatted forever before we hit record. I know, I know. I know some, some, some real similarities, but you know, obviously I've shared a little bit about you, [00:01:00] but would you share a little bit in your words about your story and how you come to be doing the work that you do?
Because like many of my audience, you have a deep, dark corporate past and I'm curious to hear a bit about that. Yes. Store very, very brief. So I, grew up on the central coast in, , in New South Wales, and my mom was really young when she had me, and we lived in housing commission for a lot of that time.
And so I felt like. I didn't really have a lot of, there were no expectations on me for what I wanted to do. You know, there was no expectation I was ever gonna go to uni or do anything like that. But I was definitely this kid that I was just super motivated to learn, and I think some of that was watching Oprah.
And just being in this mindset of self-improvement, honestly. From a young age. And,, I picked up this book called The Magic of Believing when I was 14, which was really a book about the law of attraction. And it kind of sent me down this rabbit hole of learning about [00:02:00] how you could change your brain, how you could like, use your thoughts to change your life.
And it was. Kind of this big eye-opener for me, but it felt very natural because of, that's just the kind of kid I was. I was always like, let's solve your problem. You know, I love, let's love figure out how we can do this together. And because of the ba, my background and I always kind of looked a bit like a messy kid.
Some of my friends who came from like normal middle class. Families. They were a little bit wary of me, I think, because they just thought, oh, who is this kid? You know? Like, is she gonna bring a bad influence? And I had this thing for my friends, it was called being Brave. And it was like being brave. What are we gonna do today to be brave?
And. So I think it was just a natural thing that I was always going to this kind of work. Yeah. But I was kind of lucky, I think, that I was born in this time Where I could, you know, access clients through the internet. 'cause otherwise I would've been in just, you know, in my small town forever. And so then it was just a logical [00:03:00] progression for me.
I became a life coach and then a business coach. But in my twenties. I, I went to university 'cause I was like, okay, I got the marks to do it. First person to go to university was a massive disaster. I failed most of my subjects and I really struggled with my undiagnosed a DH adhd That I didn't know I had until
42. Age 42. And I joined this. International leadership organization called Isec That not many people know about. Do you? You've heard that. I remember that. We must have been at uni at the same period, like late nineties, early two thousands. Yeah, I remember exactly. Yes. So I, , I moved to Sydney and there was these.
Guys in, in the like, , house next door and one of, they were all like 25, 26 and , I'd already failed my first year of uni. And they were like, oh, you should join this business club called Isec. It's really fun. And so I joined and that's the only way I made friends at uni and it gave me a like. A bit of a mission.
'cause the whole thing about Isaac is, , [00:04:00] peace and understanding of mankind's potential through Exchange, like cultural exchanges. So it's all around the world and you come together to leadership conferences, you learn about other cultures. And the idea is if you know people from another country and culture, you're not gonna go to war with them.
Yeah. And, , and so unknowingly my husband, my future husband, he joined his university in Manchester. Oh. And so that's. That's how we met. And a lot of the people and the friends that I made in Isec, , went to consulting firms and things like that. So in my early twenties, all my friends were at Accenture or Deloitte, or Ernst and Young, and I went to pwc
For a very, like couple of years. And I just. Never, like the corporate environment just felt so weird to me. But I think I had this thing of going, I, I'm breaking the cycle, you know? A lot of my friends at home were beauticians and teachers and, and I was like, well, my new friends are all in the corporate world.
Yeah. And I had this little secret dream in [00:05:00] my heart, really to be an entrepr. And I didn't know anybody who did that. It was like a very in-between space. So when I tried to do it, you know, my corporate friends were like, what are you doing? And then my friends from home were like, what are you doing?
So it was very uncharted territory. I think, but I, that's what I really wanted to do. And I think the more people I found who were doing that, it becomes a bit of monkey see, monkey do. Right. You sort of go, oh, it's a thing. Oh, okay. You're allowed to do this. And yeah, it kind of progressed from there.
Oh, amazing. But I think that really speaks to the power of community, which I know is what you cultivate inside your money bootcamp and, and is what I. I hope to build inside the corporate to coach accelerator, which is this sense of when we put ourselves into this position, which is often super foreign of being an entrepreneur, if we surround ourselves with other people doing it, there's just a, a different experience than if we're, we're doing it.
On our own. So yeah, I really, I really huge because it legitimizes that for us be, but also [00:06:00] it's, you just, you need support. It's very lonely when you're an entrepreneur. But even to be able to share, I know with, with other friends who are, might be in slightly different areas, but to say, what are you charging?
What's your day rate? How are you, , you know, what, how are you getting your contracts with clients? Can you look over this thing for me? Boundaries, all of those things are so important. You know when you're in a job and you get your salary discussion once a year or whatever, but as an entrepreneur, you have to set your prices.
You can change the many time you want. And it feels like you're adrift a little bit. Yes. Of going, what are the rules? What are the boxes? What am I allowed to do? And you don't realize you're allowed to do anything. And I've seen some people really struggle from that of going, can you really? Like what qualification do I need to?
And you go, well, for some things you don't uhhuh and that's okay too. And it's like, yeah. I'm gonna get into trouble. Yeah, absolutely. So pricing is, is, is definitely on my list of things I wanna hit you up about today. But before I dive in, I want to maybe give, , listeners a little bit of a, like a grounding in, [00:07:00] I've sort of introduced you as a money mindset expert, and I think executive coaches, leadership coaches probably understand mindset, you know, a little bit better than the average person.
But how do you describe what money mindset is? So for me it's like the, how do you think and feel about money? Yeah. What are your stories about money? And also how are they impacting you in very practical ways today? So, I am a student of money mindset. You know, I, I, a lot of people do introduce me as a guru, as a teacher, as an expert.
And I go, I'm really not like I am. A curious seeker of money stories. And helping people understand and connect those dots and, and to choose something different and to have patent interrupters. To be a pattern interrupter myself, but also to create community where we can share those stories so we don't feel like we're alone.
We can choose to have a healthier relationship with money, and we can make, [00:08:00] we can normalize this conversation of money. Yeah. , That's, that's really what I, I do. And so I do that through my books and my courses. So I'm not a financial advisor. I don't talk to people about how they invest their money. We actually don't really talk about money that much.
Mm-hmm. You know, a lot of the things that we talk about, , could be applied to anything. And actually one of my first courses was helping people find their soulmate. Love that. A lot of the exercises on that course are the same as the money course because it is, it is about being curious and to really look at our patterns and our sabotages, our recurring sabotages, which we all have, and like just making it be an easy thing.
And I think it's tricky for, for women. About money in particular, because I think we're so good at talking about any topics with our friends and problem solving things, but when it comes to money, it feels like We're not allowed to have those conversations and there's so many reasons for that.
Yeah. And I just want it to be easy and normal and funny. You know, to talk about money. [00:09:00] Absolutely. And, and that's one of the things I definitely like to do with people is like, I like to put them on the spot. Let's all talk about exactly what we're charging. Let's actually be transparent about it. But I think maybe something I don't do enough of is, is actually talk about where are these blockers when it comes to pricing coming from.
And it's, it's so funny because as an executive coach, like. You know, I'll get in there and I'll be talking about, let's do some biographical inquiry. Let's explore your past and the feelings you had about things that are showing up in, you know, your leadership and this and that. But, but I don't necessarily do it about money, and I wonder if that's because of my own story about how it's not, you know, it's uncomfortable to talk about money or it's not something we should talk about.
So, you know, while I do talk about it, I do notice that that tension also also exists. Can you give us some examples of money, stories like that, that people might notice, particularly as they start businesses? Like, I feel like there's, yeah, that's a time when it's gonna come to the front. Well, exactly what you just said.
When people come into my Money bootcamp, that's one of the first [00:10:00] things we do as well. We do a little bit of an inventory of our specific money memories because it is really interesting sometimes how, , one singular experience. Can really impact stuff, but also a general like theme of things can impact stuff.
So I'll give you two examples. So like if you were told in explicit and very implicit ways. That it's impolite to talk about money. Then you will absolutely struggle with setting a price. Yeah. Displaying your prices. Saying your price out loud on a, on a sales call. Sending invoices. Yeah.
Chasing up invoices, , you know, setting boundaries with clients about scope creep and things like that. There is just, you can just see there's a direct through line. Because every part of you is just going, this is impolite. Yeah. And. I don't know about you. I've been on sales calls with people as the potential client where they cannot even say the number.
Yeah. Out loud. And I get to a point where I'm like, so [00:11:00] how much is it? Do you want my credit card details? Because they There's everything inside them that says, this is so impolite to talk about. So that is like, that could be a general kind of one. And like, but it could be a very specific thing.
So for me, I have a very specific memory of, I started my first business when I was nine selling bracelets. Yeah. And I talked about it at show and Tell. So what would that be? In year three, I'm guessing? Something like that. Year four. And the teacher stood me up and he was like, so how much are you paying for your materials?
What's your profit margin like? He was like grilling me as a 9-year-old. Oh my God. And I was so terrified and it kind of shut me down. And I, I have dyscalculia now, I've realized decades later, and anything with like putting on the spot with information sums, even things like big walls of. Text, like a timetable or a bus timetable.
Mm-hmm. Very hard for my brain to understand. But I had that memory of like, [00:12:00] I will get in trouble if I get it wrong. Wow. So it was a very, very specific memory that really made me shy away from, , well, I just had an identity of myself. I'm not good with math, you know, I'll screw it up. I can't be trusted with numbers.
And, you know, that probably impacted the kind of business that I went into, right. Of going I can't have a product based business. I'll, I'll screw it up. And that is probably true. I'd be like, fine, you know how much the packaging costs cares. But, but that was a very specific thing and so you've got to, sometimes I get people to do a bit of an, you know, like a timeline a little bit.
Mm-hmm. See if there are themes. But what happens is, it's so fascinating. I've had people who've been in my Money bootcamp for 13 years. Right. Sometimes there'll be. You'll find different nuances or you'll remember things that didn't seem significant at the time, but now are, or you realize that there are things that were normal in your family, that you have [00:13:00] continued normalizing.
Mm-hmm. Or you've overcompensated and gone the other way. So I've seen people whose families were really, really frugal and so they're like, they've almost made a vow with themselves. I'm never even gonna think about the price of things I. Yeah. So then they go the other way. Yeah. You know, and then they're like, I don't even know how much I spent on that and I don't even wanna look at it.
I don't even wanna open my credit card statements. And so I think what we are trying to aim for is just a healthier relationship with money. A little bit more neutrality. Around money. That's what I'm trying to aim for with my kids to be like, money's just a thing. Yeah. It's not something you have to be scared about.
You don't have to worship it. Just trying to. Aim for neutrality and just normalize having these conversations and also just normalizing the idea of curiosity is not a bad thing. Like, like just because you had that experience, it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. You can choose something different at any phase.
Of your [00:14:00] life and just be, have fun with it and be light and curious about how it could be impacting you. Oh my God, there's so much gold in there. I'm, I'm, I don't, I don't know where to start, but I I, so what it sounds like to me is that there's, and this is a process you do in, in, you do talk about in your books, but also you support in Money Bootcamp is this process of, yeah.
Actually going back through our life and, and almost doing an audit of these are my, the experiences I remember and, and the, the things that I can, can notice. And you know, I I, I went through this process when I read your book and, you know, I was like, oh, interesting. I'd always told myself that, oh, my mom made $63,000 when she was a principal.
I thought there's no way I could ever, ever make more than that. Right? And so that, that was one, and that was interesting. But actually. One that really came through for me was maybe like a month or two or, or even six months after I did that, I was sort of doing some reflection and I, it, this memory popped into my mind and it's a me memory that I remembered, but not in the context of money.[00:15:00]
But what happened was I was in, I think year one or year two and, you know, having a great time at school, was always playing through lunches. And then one day, . Some money got stolen from the teacher's drawer. Right. It was like, you know, one and $2 coins and, , I got pulled aside, right. And my dad was a teacher at the school, so there was no sort of public shame.
I was, you know, sent to go and talk to him and he sort of sat me in the car and was like, you know, Ellie, you know, they found this money in your bag. And it was down in the bottom of my bag. And what had happened was my mom and dad used to give me money once a week for an ice cream, but I was always too busy playing, so I never spent it.
And so there was, you know, eventually they found out that predictably it was the naughty boy in the class. And, you know, so I was, I was off the hook, but there was this link that I had between accumulating money and having it and that it not was, wasn't safe to keep it. And I was like, wow. Like I never.
Would've joined the dots between that story [00:16:00] and why, you know, as a young adult, particularly in my twenties, like I would make plenty of money, but I couldn't keep it. And then even, even, you know, yeah, in business, like I would, you know, charge, you know, really good rates, lots coming in. That was never my problem.
But, you know, somehow translating that into, into wealth wasn't as natural. And so, you know, like I, I suspect we've all got these little stories, but sometimes it's not obvious ones. What you've said is so juicy. So, , I try and come at money mindset from as many different angles as possible. Yeah. Because you never know what's gonna resonate with somebody.
So some people actually find it really tricky to look at the past. Mm. Some people have to look at what are the problems now and then like reverse engineer it. Yeah. Some people also like to look at what do I want? What would be the ideal kind of situation and then reverse engineer it that way? Yeah, so there's two assignments that I look at that, that you've spot on.
One is energetic income levels. Is to look at [00:17:00] where am I stuck now? Where have I been stuck at the past and what's symbolic about that. And sometimes it is someone else's salary. Yeah. It's so fascinating. And I got stuck at 120 because that's what my uncle made. Yeah. And he was the richest person in the family, and I, it felt like a threshold.
I didn't want to step over of going, am I gonna be the richest person in the family now? Do I have to pay for everything? For everyone? It was really interesting. Some people get stuck at it because it's their own old salary. That was my corporate salary and I had to work hard for that, and it was a legitimate job, so no.
Yeah. Or, , I had to work, that's what I earned when I really burnt myself out. So you have an association of going, but if I go over that, I'm, I have to accept the consequences of that. Wow. , Some people, it's a tax threshold thing and they're not even aware of it. Or it's, I have to then start charging GST or attacks.
And if I'm gonna screw it up, because my year one [00:18:00] teacher told me I was bad with math and I'm gonna get in trouble and go to jail. Like my ancestors who came over here stealing a loaf of bread. Like there's so many layers, so many. , So we've gotta look at that. Each time someone gets stuck, there's always something.
Yeah. So I remember I got stuck at 250,000. Because I was like. I wanna make a million and I'm working so hard, how can I work four times harder? Yeah. Like the math didn't work out. And I was like, I had this realization. I was like, oh, I'm still thinking in such a linear one-to-one relationship with effort and reward.
Yeah. And that's when I was like, oh no, I need to hire, I need to replicate myself. I need to create passive income. Like, so there's always energetic income. But the other thing though is really interesting that you said. This assignment in Money Bootcamp, we call it New Zero. So we've all got our upper limit.
Mm-hmm. But we've also all got our bottom limit. So there's three groups that people fall into. One, they're like zero is [00:19:00] actually, they're very comfortable being in debt. Right. So their zero might be minus whatever. And I had someone, she was, she was $70,000 in debt. We did a lot of mindset work.
Soon as she got to zero, she, no joke, joined a mastermind that was $70,000. Oh my God, I feel like I do this. Yes, I was there too. Right. Don't worry. Yeah. So, but you have to then go, why is it not safe for me? Okay. So for some people it's, it's not safe for me to have excess. Why is it not safe for me to have excess?
Because someone will steal it. Someone will think that I am, I've done something bad for it. It, it will, , make me lazy. It will, you know, there's always a reason. Yeah. Okay. So then the next group of people are the people who are always at zero. No matter what. And so it's like, I remember I had $5 in my bank account the day before I was gonna get [00:20:00] paid.
And I was like, what can I buy for $5? Yeah. It felt like a very comfortable equilibrium of going, I don't know anything. No one knows me. I'm safe in that, right? But the next group of people, they're the ones that, it's never enough. How much savings they have. So they have the opposite problem.
They don't allow themselves to feel safe. They don't allow themselves to spend money. They always feel like they're gonna be homeless on the street. And so the challenge for those people is that you have to give them permission to spend money and to have enoughness. And I find it fascinating with those three groups because.
What we do is then we, we, we will look at, you know, what's not safe about this situation. And it's always different things. Either we've copied or we're overcompensating But then we have to acclimatize ourselves to a new zero. Yeah. So for those people who are massively in debt, it is a process of going, okay, I'm gonna [00:21:00] pay off a little bit of my debt and I'm going to use that feeling of wanting that instant gratification somewhere else.
Mm-hmm. And make, almost make it a game to pay it off. Notice when I am going back there. Yeah. And it might, it might take a while. Right. But there could be practical things in there too, of going, when I was doing it, I was like, every time I paid off debt, I called the bank and changed my limit. 'cause I'd always Yes.
Spend my limit. Yeah. , This is not financial advice, by the way. No. , The zero people when I got to zero and I had to sit with that for a while. I wanted to become someone who was comfortable with having excess. Yes. So I set up like an ING account and I set up $5 a week to go to my ING account.
Do you know how many times I rated that account in that first year? Because I was just not used to having money. It felt like just sitting around doing nothing. Like, who are these people? And realizing that my mom always lived paycheck to paycheck. We, that's how we lived. It was very normal. And it was like [00:22:00] you just, and when people talked about having savings, I was like, what, for?
Like, why would you need that? Why would you need a safety net? Just work harder or, yeah, whatever. And so I started with five until eventually I stopped having to read that I felt comfortable with it. And then it was seven, and then it was like 11. And then I got to a point where I was like, I, I can have.
Been investments. Yeah. It was like this new thing of going, it's safe for me to have more than I need. It's safe for me to not have to go to the wire. It's safe for me to not live in feast or famine and, but it took a while. So that whole thing of what do you want your new zero to be? You know, am I gonna feel comfortable, you know, having this amount of cushioning.
But for those accumulated people, it's like, okay. Don't keep on raising the bar of going, yeah, alright, I'll start my business when I have this amount in the bank, when this amount and this amount and this amount, it never comes for them. So I love that [00:23:00] you're already in that conversation and it's a fun process, right?
It is. It is. And, and I think like I, I had to maybe, maybe I had to trick myself a little bit, which is that I, you know, I wasn't very good at accumulating money in a savings account, but it counted as spending it if I invested it right, so I could get it out of my, I had to get it outta my way soon enough.
And then, and then, you know, I'm more operating with a different amount of cash. So that, you know, I think that zero point I really associate with that. Yes, well, what, whatever way it works, right? So for a lot of people, they have to automate it. Because then they don't think about it. For some people like me, I had to have it in an ING account where I didn't really know the details off the top of my head.
Mm-hmm. So I had to search for it. You know what I mean? Yeah. I like the idea of sometimes it's the, it's the action and so I switch that pleasure of going, oh, I want that thing to going. Oh, I'm gonna put that onto my debt and change my spreadsheet update. Yeah. Like getting a bit of pleasure out of that.[00:24:00]
Mm-hmm. So whatever way it comes. To trick yourself to do whatever. To then become, become a new habit. Yeah. So I can see a parallel between those three stages and how comfortable people need to be in order to make the leap into becoming an entrepreneur. Right. So, so leaving their job.
Needing to feel like I've got these buffers in place and like I talk a lot about, you know, what do you need in place? But there are some people who need no buffer. They're just gonna, yeah, that was me, right? Was like, yeah, and that, that was me do it. That was, that was me when I first did. There are some people who are going to, you know, need to see that there's enough to keep ticking on.
And there are some people who are going to need a year. A runway right before they can even consider it. How, how can people think about money through this transition? Like, are there any, any tricks or tips to, because it's not just about the absolute number is what I've observed. It's not about how much money you've got or how much you're earning.
It's actually about this emotional labor that you're doing about it and, and like really having to, you know, turn off some of that, that [00:25:00] angst. And I'd love your thoughts. Well, it's a really great. Thing because I remember I was helping a friend who is a coach, she had a whole bunch of, , people at a mastermind retreat.
And I went to help her. And one of the girls was pregnant and she was like, I really need this business to work like it needs to work. And she was in a corporate job at the time, and Victoria and I set up all night just like, oh, how are we gonna help her? Like coming up with this, all these plans. So the next day I was so stressed and I said to her, okay, you just need to tell me how many.
How long until you run out of money because we need to gain out your business. And she was like, she thought about it and I can't remember, I think she said like six years. And I went, oh my God, I've been sleepless over this problem. But it's exactly what you said. For some people it's the excuse. It's never going to be enough.
Yeah. And for someone like me at the start Yeah. Especially before I had kids, I, I quit my job all the time to start businesses and then I'd be like, oh, well that didn't work out. I'll just. Get another job. [00:26:00] And there's no good advice on here because it has to be so customizable. Yeah. For your situation.
And this is the tricky thing, sometimes people will hear bad advice and go, oh, I'll just leap. And it's like, yeah, but you don't know what that, that situation is if the person telling you to do that. And For me, um, I was really like my husband had a job. And so I was like, you know what?
I am gonna go for it and I need you to give me six months. Where you do not like stress about it, you do not like, and, and there's gonna be some sacrifices. We're not gonna be able to go on holidays. You know, like there's gonna be some financial implications to this. But you know what? Week three, he's like, have you made money yet?
Have you made money yet? Uhhuh, but maybe you should get a job. And I remember having to set the boundary of going, no, no, we said six months. Yeah. And I had to then not use that. I think some people are motivated by that. If I have to do it, some people are [00:27:00] paralyzed by it. Yeah. And so for some people it might be, you know what, I'm going to step it out, so I'm gonna go from full-time work to part-time work.
Yes. Yep. So I know that my bills are gonna get paid because if I don't have my nervous system, like okay. I will not be able to do anything in my business. Yeah. You know? So it might be like, okay, I'm gonna have Thursday nights is when my, I do my clients. Or Saturdays on top of my full-time job, then I'm gonna go to four days or three days.
Mm-hmm. And then, but the problem is you need to sometimes be really strict with yourself and go, no, no, no. This is what I'm, this is what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna keep on making it this never ending hurdle. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not all or nothing. I've had people, I've known people who have gone back to work since Covid.
Yeah. Part-time or full-time. Yep. And because they needed to for their nervous system. And that's okay. That's okay too. It's never like a, like a [00:28:00] decision that you make in concrete. You can always choose and choose again, and sometimes you might take on, you know, a more of a corporate kind of client. That's a bit of a hybrid situation, and that's okay too.
But I just don't, I really struggle when I see people procrastinating forever and ever and ever waiting for the right conditions because it's never gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. E exactly. I mean, yeah, I think. It's, it's definitely something I see also that, that people put a lot of pressure on themselves that if this doesn't, , you know, succeed immediately that there's some sort of a failure or that if they have to work part-time, they haven't done it right.
Or, or something like that. And so, you know, we talk a lot about what are the different ways you can stagger. The ramp up and you know, like there's different models of how we work with clients. So most of, most of, um, this audience works with corporate clients, but you know, a lot of people will have an associate gig as well where they work, you know, under someone else's banner and they might work with [00:29:00] individuals as well.
And they, you know, and, and all of it is, is, is great, but there's definitely some interesting stuff at play. , One of the things you talk about. In your work is this idea of, of manifestation. Right. And you know, I know for, for some corporate folks it's like, oh, hang on, we might be veering a little bit into the wu, you know, Wu territory.
Yeah. , And you know, like I've, I've. I've actually come to believe that there are a lot of business books out there that if we, that are written by men that are basically saying the same thing, but that we give sort of a little bit more credence because of, you know, maybe slightly different language and that a lot of it is actually how do we align our thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in pursuit of an ideal state.
Right. But I'd love to hear your take on particularly. The, the part of manifestation that is about, we have to sort of act as though it is before we can be there, which is like we have to invest in things that will take us to this state. Like before we're quite [00:30:00] ready. I'm not sure if I've articulated that, but you look like, you know what I'm talking about.
I, I do. Because I've had people say that to me as well, especially people who come from a corporate more, you know, it is the accumulator brain where it's very a bit more logical. Yeah. And they'll be like. You're talking about manifesting, but then you're actually doing stuff. So isn't that like against the idea of manifesting?
And so my idea of this is I say to people, manifest just means make real great to manifest something to make real. So what do we do as part of that? We have to meet the universe halfway. And even the most skeptical person, you, everyone's had experiences where you've trained your brain and attention on something and then.
There is some little bit of magic that happens sometimes, or coincidences That you can't really explain. So I always try to see how we can put ourselves in that slipstream of success and there are studies around it. So I, [00:31:00] anyone who's skeptical about Law of Attraction just read a book that comes from a different angle, like a brain training book.
Mm-hmm. One that really helped me, it was called, , the Luck Factor. I think it's by Richard Wiseman, the Luck Factor. And he talks about studies around luck and essentially the law of attraction, right? Where he put an ad in the paper to say, you know, are you a lucky person? You are an unlucky person. We need to, you know, come and do this study, basically.
Mm-hmm. And they hid money outside of the center where people would come and. Then like as part of the testing of like, are you a lucky person? Whatever. It was like, oh, did anything lucky happen today? And people who consider themselves to be lucky were the ones who were like, oh yeah, I found this money on the street.
And people who said that they're unlucky. Were like, no, nothing. Wow. So the same opportunity was there, and so he breaks it down and says, people who consider themselves to be lucky, they're looking [00:32:00] for things. They're constantly going, I'm a lucky person, so what good thing is gonna happen for me today?
Mm-hmm. They're also more inclined to actually pick up the money. To go, wow, this is cool. This opportunity is for me. So then you can extrapolate that to, you know, well I saw this opportunity, obviously that's for me. I'm gonna apply for that job, Uhhuh. I'm gonna put myself forward for it. And also then there's something there about when you have that belief that something is for you, other people believe it as well.
Yeah. And I am a terrible employee, but I'm a really good interviewer, like. So I always would get a job. Yes. Because people believed in me. Yeah. And they felt like I would be a good person 'cause I could mold myself into whatever. I could. I couldn't sustain it into an actual job. So there's something there about cultivating this optimistic.
Thing that good things [00:33:00] happen to us. Right? Yeah. And I can see this happening recently. I went to like a show, you know, like the Easter show kind of thing. And I was with a friend and I was like, oh, let's go play on the clowns. And she goes, I never win anything. So of course she doesn't even play.
Yeah. So how can you win something? If you don't play right. Yeah. And then I was at the Easter show two weeks ago and I was saying to the kids, and I've got some optimistic kids and some negative kids, right? So I've got one kid that's like, I always win everything. And I've got one kid. I never win anything.
So of course we're playing having like, I'm like, yeah, come on, let's get the tens. And so the guy who's running the stand, he was so. Caught up in our thing. We didn't even get the points. He gave us better toys than we had one. 'cause he, I love was just swept up in our like, oh my God, this is so much fun.
Whereas my friend who said, I've never gone anything. How can she win anything? She didn't even play. Yeah. You know, and we know this in sales, the more you ask, the [00:34:00] more you get. It's Yeah. You know, there's no mystery around it. Yeah. But, uh, in, uh, my early twenties, when I lived in London, I. Between corporate jobs and entrepreneurship.
I took on a job at a, a call center selling broadband internet uhhuh, right? And it was one of those jobs where you had to sit there and dial and say, hey. And internet was kind of a new thing. So it was like, oh, Internet's coming in your area, right? And I just went, this does not work. So I was paid for four hours.
Everyone left. At nine o'clock, I stayed for an extra hour and I got every single inbound call. Amazing. And so I was number two salesperson because all I did was sit and take the calls of people who were calling to sign up and no one else was there. Yeah. And it was one of those things where someone was like, but aren't you cheating?
I was like, I'm working that hour for free. But I'm putting myself in the stream of [00:35:00] success. Right. And so there's always ways we can make things. A little bit easier. Yeah. It was so low. Like, you know, 1% of people would buy from getting a call at home. But like 80% of people calling in were ready to sign up.
Yeah. Right. And so there's no mystery sometimes of who gets the better things, who's getting the speaking gigs, who's getting the stuff that we want. Most of the time it's because, one, they're probably making more calls. But also they're trying to find ways of like, where would those clients hang out?
Mm-hmm. I, , I, I love that idea. And I think one of the ways I have subconsciously done that is I talk a lot about using your unfair advantages when it comes to marketing your business. And, you know, when I first started my business, I, you know, had left being a lawyer and I thought, no, never gonna work with lawyers.
Don't, don't, no. No. And so for a while I didn't, but eventually the lawyers came for me. And by the time I sort of stepped away from my, my full on, [00:36:00] uh, executive coaching business where we had a, you know, large team of coaches, you know, probably 70% of my clients were either law firms, in-house, legal teams, judiciary, you know, all, all of those sorts of organizations.
And. Because it was such a low lift for me to convince them of my credibility. Right. And, you know, I was a lawyer for two years, right? I was a baby lawyer, I was not a partner in a law firm. And, and many of people who come into my orbit now are very, very senior in, in those areas. , But if I had not put myself in that space, I would've been doing myself out of, like, letting it be easy.
And, I think. That a lot of us do that in so many ways as we, we make it harder than it needs to be. And I think that, is that sort of a, a different way of thinking about what you're saying? I think it's, um, it really is. And actually that's one of the biggest money blocks that people have to untangle when they come to me, is this idea that we have to work really hard to make money and to figure [00:37:00] out what that means for you.
Mm-hmm. So for some people it means I have to do everything myself. I have to be independent. For some people it means I have to like work all the hours. cause otherwise it doesn't count. Or I ha, or I have to do everything like my mentor did. Yes. Or I have to do things that are actually against my zone of genius.
Yeah. Even like to the point I was on someone's podcast last week. Where she teaches Facebook ads. And one of the things that she struggles with sometimes is clients going, well, that's cheating. And I had that too. I was like, no, I have to do it the old fashioned way. I have to do sweat equity.
Yeah. I can't jump the queue. And one thing I love to do, I love to bring together different professions or different cultures to say what, what is common about us? That is a sabotage. And one of the ones I had British people on. A round table. And we talked about this idea of queuing about how British people love queuing uhhuh.
And I was like, how is this showing up? And it was like, I can't do things that jump [00:38:00] the queue, that skip the queue. I can't get a fast pass. I can't overtake someone. Who started before me or is older than me. It's so interesting how all of these things come into play. And that's why I love the work that I do.
'cause there's, there's unlimited possibilities Yeah. Around how we could be sabotaging ourselves in, in big and little ways. And yours is a perfect example. Yeah. I'm not gonna do the easy thing. I'm gonna go all the way round and try all of these other things first instead of going Well, that, that actually is the fast pass.
Yeah. And I see that, so we've got quite a, a global cohort. So we do have our, our fair share of Brits and you know, people from the US and Asia and all over. But there is a sense that they need to, you know, do their dues, you know, serve their time before they can really. , Particularly in business. And so a lot of the time I'm, I'm talking to them and saying, when people are buying executive coaching services, it's not just your, they're not paying for whether you did that last, [00:39:00] last two hours and got the, the tick of approval and the letters after your name.
They're paying for your 30 years of corporate experience that you are now translating to them in a different way. , And that, you know, help you to, to understand how, how to expand their thinking, right? And so. So that, but, but they, there is a lot of people who say, oh, I'll be able to do this when I have, you know, got this checkbox, or I'll be able to do this when I have this perfect website, or I'll be able to do it when I have this.
, And so often it's like, no, no, those are just things you're putting in your, in your way. Well, it's that sa exact same thing about the three levels of the new zero, right? Yeah. You've got people who will always just jump and leap. And then you'll have the people who it needs to be the exact right conditions.
Yeah. I actually do see it a lot. There's a sometimes a bit of an ego death coming from the corporate world. Going to the entrepreneur space. Yes. Because you see these people and they're looking going, is that person just making it up? You know, like where's the, where are the standards where, and [00:40:00] they think that then if they go into that space.
Other people are gonna think the same thing about them. Uhhuh, especially when you go, you go from corporate to entrepreneur mentality of like, the entrepreneurs are like, oh, we'll just build the plane as we fly it. You know? And it's just like, No, that's so unsafe. And especially if you came from a very highly regulated industry as well, where you literally will get in trouble from your corporate, you know, from your body or whatever.
Yep. And sometimes you do have to chill out a little bit and to go, yeah, no, it's okay. Like. I'm allowed to do this within my, you know, parameters. But yeah, it's okay to not know all the answers and it's okay to do things in a little bit of different way and I can still have my standards as well. Yeah, it's a fascinating, it's a fascinating thing when, when they realize, my brother even, so my brother's in the army and he said, you know, I'd really love to do, , like motivational speaking.
Mm-hmm. And then he's like, so what certificate do I need to get? And I was like, you could just do it dude. And he is like, [00:41:00] real like, but, and I'm like, yeah, you can just do it. No one's gonna. That really resonates. And like in our context, I think it's like, okay, well I've done this coach training, but can I coach a team or do I need like to go through another 12 month training program?
And I'm like, you'll definitely get some benefit out of doing some deliberate training. But you can do that now, right? You can do, you can do it now. Absolutely. And yeah, I, I love that. Okay, so one question I wanna talk about is pricing. , We talked a little bit about that, and pricing is. A very common challenge with my people.
Sometimes I actually like to shock them by telling them what people are charging for coaching, just to see, you know, oh my God, you know, I'm pricing myself at a 10th of that. And so there's a deep discomfort that comes up in a number of ways when it comes to pricing, and I think it comes because. A lot of people are associating their personal worth with the number that they put on their service.
Mm-hmm. , And so there, there, but there's a lot of reasons I [00:42:00] think why, why we might feel uncomfortable. How, how can people think more helpfully about pricing their services? Yes. I think the thing that helped me is to realize there is no such thing as a critic proof price. Oh, yes. And that's what we're trying to get sometimes Uhhuh.
Yep. Unwittingly, right. We want a price that everyone can afford, no one's gonna be upset about. Yeah. That's within everyone's budget. That is reasonable to everybody. and we can never, ever, ever get that. It's less personal when you're selling something for someone else. And especially like, I remember when I was, , a sustainability consultant is I just had a day rate.
Mm-hmm. And my, my company, as soon as I did one extra thing, I got, you know, one extra client or whatever, they upped my day rate whenever they could. Right? Yeah. They were like, oh, you're a bit better now. Let's up your day rate. And for me, I was so disconnected from that. It was something that was decided for me.
Yeah. And so then you're right. When you [00:43:00] do start. Charging for yourself. It feels, especially for women, it feels like that's a real ego thing. Yeah. You know, and we're worried about that. We're worried that, , we're having tickets on ourselves, we're too big for our boots, and that can feel horrible. But I think the horrible thing is when someone says they can't afford it.
Or that it's out of their budget, we take it personally. And that you will just get that. And I love hearing that now from my clients where someone said she's a, , a wedding cellist and she's just upped her prices and upped her prices so much. And it's been a real dance for her because every time she has, she's gone.
Oh God. But yeah, I'm, I'm charging more than all my peers now. Right. And that brings up its stuff. And I'm charging more than family members who are. I can get one more in one gig than someone can make in a whole week. That brings up the guilt. Yeah. And then she said recently she goes, I had a bride say that I was out of her budget and I could feel she just [00:44:00] texted in a comment and I, I could feel the neutrality of that.
Yeah. And she just, it was, matter of fact, I had a bride say it's out of her budget, so yeah, nobody died. There's nothing wrong with that. And she can just know that's fine, that it's out of her budget. I don't feel bad about her. I don't feel like, oh no, her wedding's ruined now because she'll never find anyone in her budget.
That is not true at all. Yeah. , I hear that same thing from like, say. Family photographers, they go, but I need to be affordable. And I'm like, there is, there are photographers at every budget. Yeah. In every, any small town. There are people who will always be free and not know their value. And there'll be people who are really expensive.
Mm-hmm. And if we are trying to get a price that every single person says, oh, that's reasonable. Yes. It, it is impossible. Yes. Same if you have corporate clients, there'll be some that will be out of their budget. It'll be some that it is in their budget, but the person who's buying it [00:45:00] has a thing about like Yeah.
They have their own money stuff. Yeah. And that's fine too. , And so the only thing you can do is you have to be feel in integrity with your pricing. That it's win-win. Yeah. And the yucky thing about that, and this is the worst thing, Ellie, is that that changes over time. That's static too. Right?
Something that feels win-win sometimes doesn't feel win-win anymore. Yeah. And sometimes that happens very quickly. Yeah. That you go, oh wow, three clients. Oh no, I can't do it at that price anymore. Yeah. It's not win-win. Or I've put too much in, or actually I wanna change the way I deliver it 'cause that doesn't work for me anymore.
Or this would be better and it's. It is an energetic art, and that's the hardest thing for people to get their head around. Sometimes you just have to pick a number. Yeah, pull it out of your butt. Yeah. See how it feels. See if it feels energetically win-win, and [00:46:00] keep on checking in with yourself about that, because there is no stand in any industry.
There is no. Standard price. No. You're allowed to charge whatever you like. That's the good and the bad news. Yeah, and, and I think that sort of comes back to why it's important to have a community where you can talk about this stuff because, you know it's better to work through that anxiety, that discomfort about a price with people who are in the same boat who care for you rather than, you know, have it happen in your brain as you're talking about it.
To, to your potential clients. So, so, absolutely. On that note, Denise, could you tell us a little bit about Money Bootcamp, how people can work with you, how you work with people? Absolutely. So, , my website by the way is denisedt.com Yep. We'll put that in your, if you wanna find, yeah, if people wanna find out about bootcamp, it's just slash bootcamp denisedt.com/bootcamp
, So bootcamp is one of those places. It's a community and a course and a series of tools where people can come in. , They can actually join at any time, but sometimes throughout the year we might have different things and [00:47:00] we have a live call, , every month, two live calls. And it is a safe place to explore these things that we've spoken about today, to layer them in and to normalize these things and to build up, I think sometimes your resilience about talking about money 'cause it's a very open, honest place.
A safe container to have these conversations and to work through these, but also I think to hear other people's stories that are similar and dissimilar to ours. To be able to really build that curiosity and that compassion muscle as well. And yeah, it's just a, it's a really, , fun place to explore.
To explore money and to feel better about, about money and , yeah. But I would say though, a really good place to start for some people might be one of my books. So Get Rich, lucky Bitch is definitely about more of exploring some of those money blocks. But if you've just started a business, chill and Prosper is my business book.
Love that one. And it does, yeah. Yeah, it does weave [00:48:00] in the The money mindset stuff, but with also real, really practical things in there too. Especially, . If you've hidden income plateau, some of those things you might need to tighten up around boundaries and having these conversations around money, , and really making it a bit of a game, but also giving yourself permission to design your business in alignment with you and your personality is, is key too.
Yeah, absolutely. I feel like we could talk about that for an hour just on its own, but , yes. Thank you so much for your time this morning. Was super grateful to have you and , and I do have to say my daughter, when we listen to your podcast in the car, she can sing your entire theme song now, and I know you hear that all the time.
But she said to me, she's like, you have to tell Denise that I love her song. That's so nice. Thank you. And I do hear that a bit, but it's funny, my kids, for the first, , couple of years, they thought it was Mummy Bootcamp for mums.
Aw. Oh, that's so cute. They're like, how's your mummy bootcamp going? And , yeah. So yeah, I love that amazing kids can, you know, [00:49:00] glean some of these lessons via most spoil Yeah. Little things. Exactly. Because I want our, our daughters especially to know that it's okay to talk about money. Definitely. Me too.
All right. Thank you, Denise. I'm gonna.
