See what I need to send myself. Does it look funny? It fits. Hello and welcome to the business of executive coaching podcast.
I am absolutely delighted to be here today with my friend and client, Jenny Toh. Jenny is a coach who is based in Singapore and I'm gonna give you just a high level of her background and then she can give us more details. But Jenny is a, as I mentioned, coach in Singapore, hugely experienced as a coach.
Comes from a background as a lawyer, just like me. And also beyond coaching, also supports other coaches as a mentor, coach and a supervisor. And I would say that Jenny is one of the most thoughtful and considered coaches that I have met.
And I think this comes a little bit down to the fact that she also loves to speak about the importance of very specific and tailored approaches that recognize the value of quiet leadership.
In a world that is very much dominated by the extroverted amongst us. So I love that this is something you talk about, Jenny. Welcome. It's great to have you here. Well, thank you, Ellie, for the comprehensive introduction. I'm just thinking what else do I have to add? Well, being a very ethical coach, as most of actually all your clients are including yourself, I wanna clarify, I'm still a supervisor in training.
So I'm the mentor of study. I hope to get my certification in August. So I just wanna clarify that. And I'm also a positive psychology practitioner. I got my certificate in applied positive psychology about two years ago. So I don't actively teach positive psychology, but interventions are quite useful when I do coaching. But I think that's about it. Yeah, first as a lawyer and then as a coach.
And yes, a lot of my clients are the quieter types.They may not, at first instance, describe themselves as an introvert. However, when I coach them, it comes up with similar concerns.
Oh, my manager or my CEO wants me to be more visible to speak more at the exact level. And I don't know how to do that because I'm very technical. And I'll just speak my mind. And I don't think I belong there.
So there's this sense about how do I show up authentically and on my own terms? And that's quite a common team among some of my more senior clients. Yeah. And I actually really love that that is a conversation we're having now because I think for so long, and I think that there are cultural dynamics at play as well.
There was this expectation that there was one mold of leadership that was expected, that was successful. And that was to be the loudest voice in the room, to assert our dominance as a leader through extreme extroversion, I guess. And so I really love that there is support for leaders who don't look like that, and that we're even having the conversation about there maybe being otherwise to be successful as a leader.
So I love it and I think what you do is amazing. So can I take you back though? Sure. Tell us your corporate to coach story because obviously we know the once was a lawyer and now as a coach, but I'm imagining there was to be an increasing number of lawyers than coaches. I will go off tangent a bit. I was at a conference yesterday where I was speaking section in front of a lot of lawyers.
One of the concerns is lawyers leaving the profession.So of course, that whole conference yesterday was to ensure lawyers well-being and to stay in the profession. But that's not the reason why I pivoted from being a lawyer to a coach.
So my story is that I was working in several banks and in one of the banks, I was a mid-level manager and this was around 2015. So coaching wasn't so big then. However, this bank was quite forward looking.
So they gave all of us managers a coaching course, kind of like half day just to listen better, ask empathetic questions and put yourself pause, reflection. So I thought those were really good tools and I tried to put them into practice with my direct reports.
However, I found that there was always a barrier because I was the one writing their performance review. So even in coaching, they would say the right things. So that it doesn't look bad in their performance review.
So you could say that was when I was bitten by the bug. However, I didn't pivot straight away to become a coach. I took time to think about it. It came to a point where I felt a bit unsatisfied with my current role.
It wasn't that it wasn't a good role. I was actually promoted and I was going to take on a larger portfolio, but there was still something missing.And I think this was this element of really impacting people's lives.
And that's what I wanted to do. So it wasn't an easy decision. And I didn't quit the job immediately. What I did was study coaching in 2019. And I did that through a school in Australia and they had a global program.
So I could do it, like jumping to calls in the morning, do peer coaching and mental coaching at night. My kids were much younger. Dance is very thankful for my family who was very supportive.
I remember my girl saying, Mom, after you put us to sleep, you're going to go on a call, right? I said, yes. So people asking me, how did I have that energy? I think it's driven by purpose.
I know I'm the tough person that once I set my mind on something, I will put my all into it.
So that's also a danger of like, you know, really putting too much of yourself out there, but I've grown as a person and as a coach. So yeah, in 2019 train as a coach, qualified as a coach in 2020, and started my business.
This was all before COVID. And I was thinking, all right, let's see how I can get in person clients. Then COVID hit and now looking back, it's actually a blessing in disguise because I had to learn how to reach out to people online.
And my first client came seven months later. So it wasn't like an immediate success. It was quite a lot of hard work. And I didn't join your program then. So maybe if I did, things would be easier. But yeah, my first client came seven months later. And right now I am running my business full time for about three years now.
So even when I started my business in 2020, there was this period where I was still doing legal consultancy work and the business was more like a part time business. But I realized that, you know,one foot in each boat was pulling me apart.
And I made that decision to run the business full time in 2023. So as you can see, it's a long way in coming from 2015 when I first experienced coaching myself all the way up to, well, 2026. Yeah.And so when you were still in your role after you'd sort of done your coach training, was the organization supportive of you actually, you know, adding coaching into your role?
So it's not the bank, although forward thinking in offering coaching, they didn't see managers as coaches then. No, it was more like tools. And I wanted to have a more coaching culture in the organization then I wasn't at that level of authority to have that influence and it didn't happen.
However, now that I'm still in contact with some of my colleagues, ex-colleagues there, the coaching culture has really increased in the bank. So I'm quite thankful for that, but it wasn't my time. It only started to happen about two years ago. Yeah, wow.
Okay, so take us into your business now. So how would you describe what you do as a coach? I'm still passionate about one-on- one coaching. So I coach quite a lot of seasoned leaders, naturally in my network, so it's banking law. And because I did quite a lot of work with other companies in the beginning of my business, I got in connection with some people in tech as well.
So these are the three big areas. So my clients come from banking, law and tech. So apart from one-on-one coaching, I do run workshops and speaking engagements. And yeah, so a lot of these things supporting leaders and also organizations to, like you said, how to build a culture that's more inclusive of the quiet leaders.
So I don't say that I discriminate against extroverted leaders. And I have extroverted clients who say, Oh, Jenny, I love this space because I can just talk and talk and you are listening. But when you ask, it stops me, right?
To really think a level deeper. So I'm not saying that extroverts, I don't coach extroverts, I do. But I guess I have this passion or this heart to coach the quiet leaders because I am an introvert.
And back when I was a lawyer, I didn't really understand introversion. And I felt something was wrong with me because I was always feeling drained.
I wanted to run away from social engagements, even though I liked people, I didn't quite understand what happened. So now years to today, I realized that it's about making choices on how you manage your energy.
And this is something that I coach a lot of leaders on as well. They don't say it in the beginning. But when I asked them to take stock of their day, they realized that they are working against their energy flow rather than with it.
Wow. So I imagine that that is a pretty powerful thing to unlock for an individual, but also for an organization. But it may not be something that they can articulate is the problem upfront.
So when people come to you, what are the sorts of problems that they're having that they would say, oh, I need a coach. And you can say, yep, I'm your coach. Yeah, so yeah, definitely working with you in your program has helped me articulate that better.
But I've also had conversations with HR in their organization. One thing they say is, can you help our leaders to have an executive presence? So I think this term is more commonly used.
And of course, they talk about influence. And then that's when I come in. Yes, it's not about influence for the moment. How do you equip your leaders to have sustainable influence while still remaining authentic, right?
So it's not to pressure your leaders or your high performing individuals to be someone they're not. So we use it in our discussions with the corporate buyers. We use terms like executive presence, influence, but I add the word sustainable influence there.
So I don't go right in and say energy management because they don't understand it. But in the workshop itself, in the sessions itself, that comes up because how do I show up at the start of the day? Is a priority feeling very tired? Some of the leaders really are on the verge of burnouts is to understand how do you set a right intention to your day? So these go on within the coaching session itself.
But when I'm talking about the programs, it's more about executive presence, sustainable influence, communication, stakeholder management.
So these are the terms that most people in the corporate world understand. But actually what goes on behind that is your internal beliefs about yourself and how you self-regulate. Yeah, so if I was someone in HR, I might see the symptom being, I've got a leader who maybe is struggling or is not building the relationships that they need to at the right level, internally or with client relationships.
And yeah, OK. And so then we know that the work they need to do is much more of that internal work. How do you grapple with organizations who… Because there's two parts to this, right? There's the individual's piece of this, but there's also the organization.
In the organization, maybe we're having the willingness to recognize that not all two leaders need to be the same. How do you engage with organizations on that level? Well, they normally talk about, oh, we have this leader and we sense that he or she is not showing up at the meetings at that executive level.
Yeah.This person is technically strong, but we need some work on this person, right? So I know, you know, every day, a little alarm bell goes off in my head saying, OK, this person needs some work on what's going on. So I agree, it is difficult if the organization culture is leaders speak up, speak loud, speak decisively, right? So the quieter leaders I coach, it doesn't mean they're not decisive, but they do introspect a lot.
And unless they feel safe in the environment, they hold back. That's why a lot of their peers or even their bosses don't see their true potential. So in the coaching sessions, that's what I coach them on.
But yes, at the initial discussion, it's always about helping my leader become...Hold that, build that executive presence, help my leader engage senior management better. And maybe help this person work on some communication and influencing skills.
So these are the three bright buckets that we normally talk about. Yeah, and it's interesting.
I think we also create the culture of shift as coaches, don't we? Which is yes, we work with the individual, but through things like alignment conversations and the discussions we're having with HR.
We're also building a recognition that maybe we need more acceptance of different styles and that one way is not better than the other. And it's important to have the kickoff calls, like with HR, with the hiring manager or sponsor,and then with the coach, the client in the meeting, so that he and she can hear the expectations and maybe push back her bed on.
This is not the goal, so that at least everyone starts on the same footing. In my earlier days, I was coaching individuals, much easier, I don't have to get that person's superior in the call, but as we're doing more business and corporate engagements, it's important to get everyone started on the same page, alignment of expectations and broad goals.
You're not telling the manager or HR exactly what goes on in the coaching session, but broad teams, right? So you can say, okay, build sustainable influence with the aim of an element of communicating more effectively and making decisions more decisively.
Yeah, so something like that. So it's a very broad team, since there's no ethical infringement there. Yeah, no, I love that. And you sort of touched on that, you are introverted yourself,
and so this is a journey that you have also been on. Have you noticed that that plays out in running a business as well? Oh, yes. So tell us a little bit about, because I imagine there's lots of people listening in who are like, yes, introverted leaders, I work with them and support them, but maybe we don't necessarily reflect on ourselves.
So yeah, what's your insight into that? It's about understanding what I'm passionate about and why is it important for me to talk about this? So, if this was a more coaching angle conversation,you can hear how passionate I am talking about coaching and mentoring and supervision, and no one can shut me up there.
So it's like, is she an introvert? Because I spoke to a lot of coaches and people who are interested in coaching. I get a common response. Jenny, I can really hear your passion about coaching, how much you believe in it.
So for me, it's identifying my passions and what resonates with me. And I ask myself, if I don't talk about this, what benefit or what information am I depriving the other person off? So it's easy for me to talk about coaching.
The difficult part is, I know you may not like this term, selling myself as a coaching. You know, even- Selling your services, yes. Yeah, I know not selling myself, but in the beginning, I was thinking, since I am so passionate about coaching, I see my services as a very integral part of myself.
So that was the difficult part, right? Selling myself, I know you say selling services, but I started off thinking about selling myself. And I think most of us do, right? That's how we feel when we start.
Yeah. So how do I make it easier right now? I mean, because of your great program, I have systems in place to address the negative emotions around it. And then because, like I said, once I set my mind to something, I'm very determined and the systems help me get that accountability factor in.
So, you know, in terms of outreach, I have a daily goal and a weekly goal to keep to it. So although there are days when the emotions say, Oh, Jenny, you really don't want to show up on LinkedIn, right? Then I look at my spreadsheet, I'm like, Oh, but then today's the, you know, 27th of whatever month.
I need to do this because the spreadsheet says that. So the system helps me remove the emotional factor out of it. But when I show up, I'm myself again, right? I am being authentic. I have genuine conversations and I don't really hitch. So it's more like sharing my experiences with other clients, of course, but confidential in place.
I talk about broad teams similar to what we're saying now, right? Do you struggle being visible in a noisy organization in a startup? Yeah. Yeah. And so I heard a little, a little gem there.
And I'm sort of reading between the lines, which is that it's easier to show up in promotion of your services or yourself, we could say, when you can anchor that to the bigger picture, so the purpose of the work that you're doing, is that how you say it? Yes.Yes.
And I've been encouraged in the past few years when I post, I talk to people and then, because, you know, my ideal audience are more introverted. They rarely like, they rarely comment. So I don't know what's going on. But every now and again, I get a message to say that, Jenny, what you wrote sounded like you knew me.
You spoke directly to me. And it's happened time and time again. So I'm encouraged by that.
So yes, it is when I think about selling myself, there's a big, big factor, but when I think about, okay, you know, what does an introverted leader need to hear right now?
Right. And on this day of so many changes, so many uncertainties, what do they really need to hear right now? And I will write about it. Yeah.
So I'm focusing more outwards. So it's going against my nature to be an introvert rather than to introspect a lot. I'm now thinking, what do other people need to hear? And that's how I go about hosting or, you know, con conversing with people.
What do they need to hear? Yeah, that's a great tip. And we could apply that in lots of different ways. So what, yeah, what does this organization need to hear to, to be able to make a decision or take a step or, or find someone?
Or what does this individual need to hear? Yeah.I think that's brilliant. So, so when you do work with clients, how do you work with them? So we sort of talked about a high level, but what are, what are the different, I guess services that you have? So, typically I know some people say, let me just try coaching.
Can I just try one session? So actually in the, whatever you call it, whether it's a chemistry call, discovery call or strategy call, their experience, a bit of coaching with me.
And this is complimentary. So, so it's not so much when I first started a business, It was more like me asking questions and they answering, but more like, how do we work together?
I don't even do that now. I just asked them, um, if you were to work with a coach, what, what would, what would be one concern or challenge that you really need support in? And they go and talk about that.
And then the little mini coaching session happens there. Yeah. But my typical engagement would be about three to six months,and then depending on both parties' schedules, how many sessions to put that in.
Yeah. And, and you do, um, have other other services. Do you run workshops? Yeah. So, so right now, um, I run workshops on resilience.
So if it's more like an open public forum, I do some work for our national library board here. So that's like, I don't know who attends. So it's more like the general community.
So I'll talk about resilience. However, it's more customized towards organization. I talk about managing change,managing and big with T, but I think underlying all that, you still talk about resilience and I use positive psychology interventions to illustrate what resilience really means.
So that's one of my, um, we would say anchor teams that I talk about. Another one is actually about identity, but I don't start with that.you know, it's like who you are as a leader.
What are your strengths? What are your core values? So I did one recently for the library.
It is more about managing career transition.
So people thought that I'm going to offer them strategies, which I do,along the session.However, it's more about asking themselves, who do they see themselves as a professional? And if they're going through transition is recognizing that you're losing your old identity, but the new one hasn't quite formed yet.
So this, this gap of,, not knowing is, is where the discomfort is. So I talk, that's how I bring in things like identity values and strengths. But as you know, if you were to pitch that out there into organization, it does instead.
So I use terms like, Oh, are your leaders managing ambiguity? How are they leading change?
how do they create certainty in their teams when they themselves are struggling to find direction, right?
So do your leaders need support in those areas and we can have it as a workshop. We can have it like a, discussion as well. so it's like a safe space for a few leaders to come together and brainstorm ideas. Yeah.
Oh, and I, I, I love that. And tell us a little bit, a little bit about your work as a mentor coach.yes. So I am an international coaching federation coach. And because I see F, that's the acronym, they require their coaches to renew their credentials or, you know, for first time coaches who've just been trained to apply for their credentials.
So mentoring is one of the requirements,to help the coaches obtain their credential or renew their credential. And then for those who are renewing it every three years.
So mentoring is not so much like the mentoring in the corporate world, when your manager mentors you. Here is more about listening for the coaches' coaching competencies.
So what I do is I get them to record a coaching session. I'll listen to the audio recording and then I'll give written feedback followed by a debrief session. And it's not for me to teach like, oh, you went wrong there.
Oh, you should do this. Right. Because each coach is different. What I highlight is what's going well. And this is where, you know, the, the, my mentees struggle. And I think I struggle if I'm on the other side.
So I get my own mentoring as well. People don't talk about what went well. They will straight away go into, oh, you know, I should have asked that question. Oh, why did I say that?
How do they went into what went wrong or what they could have done differently? So I make it a point to get them to at least treat things that went well. And it's more of a discussion.
There's a lot of power when you listen to something you've done before and you get insight from that. So, so in a nutshell, that's mentoring. Oh, I love that. And so how do people, how do coaches come to you?
Oh, they can find me on LinkedIn. They can find me on the ICF website at Word of mouth. So I've had mentees refer other coaches to me to say that, oh, you should work with Jenny on that.
Oh, brilliant. So, you're not necessarily affiliated with any particular coaching school. Any coach can come to you and say, Hey, I need some, I need some mentor coaching
time.
I do some freelance work with a local school here in Singapore. So I don't have to market that. So the school will send me students to mentor, but yes, I run my own mentoring program as well and is typically three one-on-one sessions and seven group sessions.
OK.Oh, fantastic. All right. Well, if anyone is needing that going through the certification, definitely look Jenny up. OK, so I wanted to start diving a little bit more into into the process of building
your business.
OK. Sure. Tell me, tell me what it's been like. What have you learned about yourself through growing a business or about business? OK, if I could tell my younger self like five years ago, I know I started my business six years ago.
Yeah, maybe about five, six years ago. Don't be so hard on yourself. It's all a learning process.
I am a perfectionist. I just don't easily say I'm a recovering perfectionist, but I remember there was so much stress, anxiety when I thought, oh, I need to get this right.
But because I'm a new, you know, business owner, I don't know what right was that. So I talked to people, I did research online, chat GPT wasn't a thing then. So I did research the old way by talking to people, reading articles, and reading journals. And I struggled with, am I getting this right? So I would say my wiser older self today would tell Jenny then.
It's all right.
You know, it's experimentation. If it's not right quote unquote, you always get another chance because that's the beauty of running your own business. You get to say how you want to pivot, how you want to change, you know, how you want to create new programs, how you want to drop all programs and how do you want to kind of show up in, in, in the world?
But what has kept me consistent is, you know, my, my purpose, I really want to support the quieter individuals and leaders because I'm very passionate about that. So it made the program structure may change.
Yes, but my ideal clients have always been, you know, this group. I think, I think, I mean, that is such an important lesson, right? Which is, which is, yeah, you don't actually have to get it right.
And you certainly don't have to get it right straight away. And I think it's the not getting it right that is almost an essential part of business growth.
And we have to, we have to try things and, and there are really important learnings that come from doing that. So if you'd skipped that part, then you would have had to come back to it later on. maybe more peaceful. Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. So no, I really, I really love that. And so, you know, for anyone listening who's in that space where it's feeling like, Oh, you know, you don't know what you don't know.
You're a bit worried about getting it wrong. Firstly, yeah, it's, it's part of it. And then second, I don't know if you can get it wrong, right? Because there is no right.
If that makes sense that that, you know, we are all creating something that is right for us. And yes, there are, there are themes, there are things we can do to optimize and to make it as, you know, easy as we can on ourselves.
But, but, you know, there is no, no one's, no one's going to give you a, you know, a grade on how right you did it actually. But I think it's because, you know, we have mutual backgrounds.
We came from law and I spent, you know, about 17 years in banking. It's a very structured, regulated environment being a lawyer in a bank. So it's like a double way to be that, right?
Like you really do have to be right in that environment.
You have to be right. Yeah. And then they come to you to say, you know, can you interpret this regulation? We don't want to get it wrong. So that, that sentence, don't get it wrong.
So when you move from corporate to becoming a coach or when you're starting a business, whatever business that is, and if you've come from that environment, it's very difficult to let go the expectation.
Yeah. I don't want to get it wrong. What are the consequences if I get it wrong? So I'm not saying that if you run a business without planning, without goals, without accountability, it's the right way to do it.
I still believe in structure. I still believe in accountability and I still believe in a strong community. However, maybe it's to give yourself a bit more compassion, right? You know, it's, you're not setting hard KPIs and you're not reaching any regulations. Make sure you check what, what authority you can to do certain things, but you have a lot more freedom.
And I think it's this big shift. If you're coming from a very strict corporate environment to becoming a business owner, that freedom in the beginning is unsettling.
And it takes some time to get used to it. Yeah, I agree. And, you know, even, oh my God, I've been, I've been out of the corporate world for a very long time now.
And, and I still now am like, hang on, isn't someone going to, you know, check on what I'm doing and make sure I'm doing it right? And, and, you know, give me, give me a performance review. And so yeah, it's a feeling like, I guess, losing the scaffolding, losing the platforming from beneath you.
And then suddenly you have to create it for yourself. So yeah, I think, I think patience with yourself in that process of figuring out what your, what your foundation will be is really important. And so, so obviously, you know, a huge learning curve, I think, I think growing a business is a massive learning curve.
But what have the biggest challenges been for you? And league rejection. So I remember when I fumbled through what we call a discovery call with a potential client.
I think I was nervous. This was like in the first few months itself, right? I was nervous and I was thinking I'm selling myself. Yeah. And then when that potential client says, Oh, Ginny, I don't think I, this is what I need right now.
Thank you very much. And of course I ended the call well, say, please stay in touch. And I remember that call when I, you know, it was a Zoom call because it was cool. It was a Zoom call.
I hung up. I went to my husband and I said, I made a mistake. I'm not going to be a coach. This business is not going to succeed. Just because of what I called. And my husband is like, okay, can you just sleep on it?
You don't have to make any decisions right now. You still got a full time job and you are kind of experimenting. I said, he's very supportive. But yeah, at the same time, I think, Ginny, you've overreacted because when she said, no, it was so personal.
Yes. I just felt like, Oh, she, and I don't know her. Right. There was someone who recommended her to me, right? And then I don't have a personal relationship with her. But it hurts so much. Right.
So I know maybe some other coaches are more resilient in that sense, but being a new Being rejected by a coach was so difficult. I think we always feel it.
But yeah, like especially in that point, like me, is that in a human desire to be liked. Yes. Right. Whether you want to admit it or not, right? Oh, I admit it. I admit it. For me, that's been a big story for me.
My whole life, right? Does that need to be liked and making sure that it's not the thing now that dictates how I behave and how I run my business.
But yeah, I really, I hear so, you know, obviously there's more to this story. How did you get to come to grips with it? By having many, many discovery calls. And by and by talking to people and by reading quite a lot of sales, I say salesbooks.
I follow some, some people who are in sales and marketing. And they always say that, you know, it takes how many notes until you get to that. Yes. Right.
So it's about a number of skin, but that emotional part of me was something I need to grow true to accept that it's a number of skin.
Fast forward to today. I do prepare for discovery calls like, you know, I check out that person's profile and see what industry this person is in. And, you know, my, my booking, calendar also has a few questions for that person to answer.
So I get an idea. So there's some prep there, but we're going to the call. I'm definitely more relaxed, more open. And I'm thinking, how can I be of service for this person? And if I'm not the right person to provide the support this person needs, it's okay.
Maybe I can introduce this person to someone else. Or sometimes there are potential clients who actually need counseling more than coaching. And I also have a network of counselors that whom I can refer to.
So it's, it's a shift now. It's not like, Oh, will they like me? It's more like, how can I help them? And am I the right person to help them? So even sometimes when people want to work with me, I feel something, I'm not saying no straight away.
I feel that I may not be the right person to help for whatever concern that was. So I'm more than happy to refer that person to someone I know who I think will be more suitable.
Like some of them, they, they want, you know, can you give me lessons in marketing one or one? That's not my area.I can give advice from a share experiences, but that's not my area.
And if I know of someone, you know, definitely I can direct them your way, right?
To do so for help.
So you can see it's more like the shift from, Oh, I need to be light to how can I best support this person? And I think that's more empowering for me and for the client.
Well, and, and not only is it more empowering for you and for the client, it's also more effective.
Right.
So I bet you get a much higher acceptance rate with that approach. I can comment like Jenny, you are the first coach who doesn't want to sell anything to me, but who gave me so much value that I walk away feeling bad because I now know what to do next.
And I tell them, that's okay. If you know what to do next, maybe you don't need a coach at this juncture. Yeah. But down the road, if you do, happy to continue the conversation.
So I don't know whether that's a good strategy because I give them so much. They walk away, but they feel really hurt and really understood. I had someone who told me, you are the first person who has really seen me.
And that's powerful considering that I didn't know her before that. Yeah. Yeah.
I love that. I think that's really, really helpful. And I think the same applies to conversations with organizational clients, right, which is, how can I be of service?
How can I help them figure out what they actually need in this, in, you know, whatever
challenge they've presented with? And how can I be either the person who can provide that or I can connect them to the people that do? Sorry.
That spirit of service organizations, you know, I'm building this stickiness. So in the first juncture, they might say, Jenny, or we have a pool of cultures or trainers or consultants we work with.
But then I'm a bit sticky. I go back and say, yeah, but what's your leader's demographic like, right? Are there a group of leaders who are not, you know, getting the right support? And then they know, no, no, I think we're all good that I follow up again with an article.
So I'm learning to be a bit more sticky, but there's a part of me that, that, that feels like, oh, am I being annoying? So that's when the systems, you know, like the follow ups help me. Like, okay, I'm not being annoying. I'm just following up. I, yeah, I love that. what are you most proud of from what you've built?
That it's my own. Yeah. I mean, I collaborate with other coaches and I work for other companies, but this is something that I've built from scratch. Yeah. And it's my brand. And I hope one day it's my legacy that people will remember me as, you know, the founder of River Life Coaching and I supported them at a phase in their career.
Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Then, and that, yeah, that idea of legacy is so important. Can you, can you share just, you know, like a couple of experiences you've had with your clients, obviously keeping confidentiality in mind that have really validated, you know, that you're, that you're proud of or the impact you've had that really sort of helps you stay.
Yeah. This is, this is what I meant to be doing.I cannot narrow it down to one because I believe that. Every person I coach, has received some benefit and then power is when they,
their perspective change, that's a ripple effect to their organization, to their teams and even to their personal lives because I had some female leaders come to me and say that I'm now using what we talked about with my children.
Oh, that, that's really, you know, that's really powerful. And I was thinking, I only played that small part. I'm not in their lives, right? Cause it's only in the coaching session.
And then the beauty of it is I have clients who tell me, you know, that last question that you asked me three months ago, I've been sitting with it and I'm scratching my head.
What was that question? Three months ago. So for, for culture, sometimes we feel that, oh, our session is not transformational. That's what I talk about with my mentees and also my, my super bi-zis, in, in our training, like I don't feel it was transformational.
Let go of that because we have this strong desire to help people. So we want to see the transformation. It's not for us to see the transformation. It's just to have faith that, you know, whatever work you do with your client, the transformation happens in between sessions, months after the sessions and maybe later down the road.
So I've seen them planting seeds and they are the ones who will have that ripple effect.
Oh, I love that. I love that. And, and that's sort of a good reminder, isn't it, as coaches that we actually, we don't hold the outcome, right?
We don't hold the outcome that our coaches get to own that. And, and that includes, you know, their transformation that is theirs to, to, to let unfold, we're just sort of putting in place the conditions where it can, it can occur.
I, yeah, I really, I really love that. So if you were talking to a new coach, and I think you sort of touched on this when you sort of said, what would you tell Jenny, Jenny in the early days? What tips would you have for new coaches starting a business? Definitely reach out to more experienced coaches. Yes.
I have new coaches who reach out to me and connect and they have conversations with me. And, OK, I'm a bit more pragmatic here. So I don't say quit your day job today because you've got your ICF ACC credential. Yes.
I asked them, you know, what's your plan? What's your thinking? Do you want to work in an organization as a coach? Do you want to run your own?
So I do like a mini mentoring and coaching session, but for those who are thinking of moving out from corporate to become a coach of the start of business, build your network,
ask people who've done it before, because you don't have to start anything from scratch. That being said, I've talked to people who say, don't go into coaching. You're not going to be able to earn a living from it.
So maybe at this early stage, just practice a bit more discernment. You know, if you think that you think that person's too negative, don't go there. It's very discouraging. Yeah.
Neither do you go to someone who is, you know, who said, Oh, yeah, start your business today. Next week, you're going to get your first client. That's setting you up for disappointment. But I believe in a strong community because when you run your business, a loan, it is very lonely.
And I'm talking from an introvert's perspective, right? I introspect so much that I don't know, you know, again, am I doing it right? You know, I like to talk to people, you know, smaller groups of one on one to get to hear their story and to be inspired and encouraged by them.
Right. And yeah, six apart. So, so build a community and then seek support, whether you want to work with a coach, a mentor, or work with you, Ellie definitely seeks support because I'm a firm believer in structure now.
I mean, always been a firm believer in structure, but I never quite moved that to my Business. And since last year, I've put a lot of structure in my business and I can see it's set up for success now.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And sort of seeing your business, I'm so impressed. I do have to ask, you know, your experience inside the accelerator, how has that supported you with, with the growth of your business?
I love the learning. And like I said, you, you are like that person I go to and I'm thinking, is this right? There's people done it before. And you're so transparent about so many things because you've created such a safe space and, and the community members also share a lot that I think if I were to ask another person who's not my friend, they won't tell me. Righ
So I believe in the strength of the community, the, the library of,you know, classes, lessons, and I love structure. So your templates are great. That's not the point.
I've used quite a lot of templates. So it's your program is very resourceful, but the power is also in the community, because sometimes, you may not give the answer and then someone else chimes in and they give the answer.
So it's very powerful. So I mean, for coaches, you know, find a community, whatever community that works for you, you don't have to do this alone.
They're not going to run the business for you, but it's good just to hear what other people are doing and you get ideas from them. And you share your ideas with them. Yeah. I agree. And, you know, I think from, from my experience, that's really how, how I agree my business, which was through, you know, I didn't have a program like I run inside the accelerator, but I had had mentors and I had coaches who were in my orbit who were extremely transformational and supportive.
And without that, it would have been a much slower journey. so, so yeah, I really agree. Lean into, lean into community, in, in a big way., so if it's okay, Jenny, I want to just, ask you if you rapid fire fun questions to, to end with that, that I like to ask.
And, you know, I have given some notice of these questions I didn't use to. I used to just, you know, throw them at people and people would be like, Oh, no. okay. So first question, if you can stress. Yeah, Jenny's fanning herself.
if you could coach anyone in the world, who would it be? I thought about this, but it's not so much coaching is having a conversation. So I'm a big fan of Michael J. Fox.
He's a Hollywood actor and, it's like a childhood fan of his ever since I was young. right now he's, he's been going through Parkinson's for a very long time.
And he's used that as a platform to create awareness.
So I would love to have a conversation with him because he always seems so positive, whereas, you know, physically this is just so challenging. I can't imagine going through life like that. So it's, it's, it's like the coaches dream, right?
How can someone be so resilient despite the physical disability that he has? Right. And we all need stories like that. You know, it's not so much about looking at me. I've made, you know, what, the six income,profit, right? People don't really resonate with that. But look at me.
This is what I'm doing despite or in spite of what I'm going through. So it's not a coaching conversation. It's more like I want to know how he is so resilient. Yeah. Oh, I love that. That's a great answer. Thank you.
if you could recommend a podcast or book for, for coaches out there, what would you recommend it? I would recommend your podcast. Thank you. The business of executive coaching. I also listened to action for happiness. So that's more of a positive psychology angle.
And they have sometimes they have 10 minute sessions for you. 10 minute episodes for you to ground yourself, to be kinder to yourself. and sometimes they have long interviews with positive psychology practitioners to talk about certain topics, could be anxiety, could be resilience, could be, you know, what is happiness all about?
And it is not about, you know, being happy and laughing all the time. There is this strong inner calmness and peace that you can get. So definitely for, make a bit of both, right?
They listened to your podcast to get ideas on how to go to the business, build the business, but, but that inner work, maybe listen to action for happiness. Yeah. I'm going to listen to that. I don't know of that one. So thank you very much for sharing that. And, you know, if you could, recommend something that is a practical tool or piece of software that makes your business life better, what would you recommend?
I think everyone says this, right?
Use AI, but use it wisely and, and with the proper gut rails. Okay. This is the lawyer and me talking is ethical. So I do use a few tools, but I think my go to is still chat GPT and, and
Claude, I mean a lot of people say drop chat GPT just use Claude, but I, I use both the kind of, structure, my thinking, sometimes just to polish things up a bit. yes, create content.
But it goes through my review, like several times. So that's the perfectionist in me coming up to say that, oh, you know, this sounds so chat GPT, not like me. So the end result, I use just the structure, right? And it saves time because in the past, when I was writing blogs on my own, I used to sit on them for days until I get it right. Right.
So now with AI, it may come out after 20 minutes, right?
It's still my piece. It's still my thinking, but it helps me go through that process much faster. Yeah. Fantastic. That's a great, great suggestion.
And, and yeah, I think smart use of AI, not in a way that dampens your creativity, but in a way that, you know, either amplifies or gets you out there, gets you out of your head, helps you with that editing is brilliant.
I think that's amazing.look, Jenny, thank you so much for being here with us today. I really appreciate all your insights. I just know that there's going to be so much gold there for, for coaches of all levels of experience.
And so if people want to connect with you, either, looking for a mental coach or just to connect is linked in the best way to do it. And do you have a website we can direct people to? Yes.
So LinkedIn, I have a company page, river life coaching, or you can connect with me directly, Jenny, tall. I don't think it's that difficult to find me because my profile is quite active nowadays. Excellent. And then I do have a website. So it's not triple w river life coaching. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Jenny.And again, thank you so much for your time and all of your insights here today.Thank you.
