Hello and welcome to the Business of Executive Coaching Podcast. I'm Ellie Scaf, your host, and I am so delighted to be here for the second time with the wonderful Emma Clark.
So Emma is,I recommend you go back and listen to the first episode we had with Emma, which really talks about her corporate to coach journey, but to give you a bit of a high level. Emma is a leadership and executive coach.
She works primarily with healthcare clients and she has a deep professional background in a clinical background in performance and operations and leadership at the highest levels in the health system. So Emma, it is so delightful to have you here and I love this opportunity to go deeper.
Welcome. Thank you so much for the opportunity to come back. I'm really happy to be here today. Awesome. And so we have a bit of an agenda today, which is that we want to dive a little deeper on this idea of what it means to work as a coach within a specific industry or sector.
This idea that there are clients or industries where we have an unfair advantage because of our professional background. So before I start asking you all manner of questions about that, can you tell us a little bit about what is the work you do now and who do you do it with? Yeah, I have an absolute privilege of working with healthcare organisations on leadership development and support of leaders within the system.
And I also work one on one privately with clients who predominantly come from healthcare at all different levels of the system.
So, you know, I have experience as a nurse, as a nursing unit manager, as a nurse leader and working in statewide healthcare projects, programs and reforms, not predominantly as a nurse.
And so that experience makes it quite attractive for clients to work with me to draw on the experience that I have.
So it's quite a unique value proposition for a healthcare organisation to bring in an executive and leadership coach who has lived experience of the healthcare system plus or minus the clinical background.
Yeah, when you set up your business, when you sort of left your own thought, yep, that's it, hanging out my shingle.
Did you think that you would work with healthcare? Most of all, or did you think, no, this is my chance to diversify. Tell us about how that journey unfolded. Yes, absolutely not.
With the answer to your question, I was very fixed that I didn't want to do that anymore. This was an opportunity for new horizons and everything new.
There's some real challenge with that in that coaching skills are great and coaches can coach anyone on anything.
They have that basic skill set. But when it comes to attracting clients and marketing yourself, It really helps to have some experience in where you're marketing yourself to.
Close to 30 years in healthcare, it turned out that I couldn't just walk away from that and forget that it existed.
And with a break from healthcare, which many healthcare professionals and leaders take at a point in their career because it is a system that will continue to make demands and sometimes those demands out out strip what is available.
After a break, I was actually able to remember why I started in healthcare and see that I had so much to give back to the system. Yeah, I love that. And I had a similar experience. I stepped away from being a lawyer and then I moved into law firms doing learning and development and graduate programs and the lack of when I started my business, I thought, Oh, no, I'm not working in law firms anymore.
There's no work now. By the time I sort of was at the peak of my coaching business, I would say 75% of my clients were legal or legal adjacent.
And probably similar to you, it was awesome, right? I didn't have that sense of and maybe I did need a little break from it. But actually, I felt like these were my people.
These are my people. I had been through these same challenges and not only did I understand the system, but I also felt quite purpose led when it came to the work I did in these legal and legal adjacent sectors because I thought there is so much we could do to make this better.
And my way of doing that was working with individuals through coaching or teams through team development or facilitation. So talk to me a little bit about does it feel purpose driven for you? Is that something that comes up?
Yeah, absolutely. When I think about why I became a leader nearly 30 years ago, it was because I wanted to help people and I wanted to and when I think about when I why I became a leader in healthcare, it was because I wanted to serve and coaching is so similar. And I think it's actually a really beautiful sort of almost sort of next career for nurses and caring professionals.
It's so well aligned.
I couldn't see that for a long time. But now it's my way of helping people. When I ran a big team, my role and my purpose was to support the staff and help the staff to deliver care. And now my role is to support the leaders in healthcare with managing everything that comes with their role.
Yeah, and there's almost like it's helping turbocharge, right? It's like this idea that I can help. But look at this, the leverage that the way I help can play out now. Like it's not just one person. It's like their community, their family, their organizations.
And I got on about this. I really think this is how we can change the world as coaches through this work. So I love that. And there is not a lot of sectors that are more tangibly important and life changing for people than healthcare, right? We're all going to end up in the healthcare system somewhere and other through our life.
And I think there is just this real motivation to make sure that we make it the best place for people to work in as possible. But I think we all know healthcare is tough as an industry, right?
And is having a lot of challenges globally. What are the unique challenges that you see for leaders in healthcare that you come across or organizations? Yeah, so I think for organizations and leaders, right? It's about this sort of continuing unrelenting and increasing demand. That looks, you know, different where about wherever you are in the system.
But it just keeps coming. And I think healthcare attracts people to it that they want to give, they want to help, they want to serve. And that takes a toll. And there's only so much of that. That can be given. And so I think it's this, so a lot of this, I think nearly every week in coaching, the roles that my clients have, they could go to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week for a year.
And the work would never be done. Yes. Yes. Wow. Yep. This really resonates with me. I remember learning that. I remember the day that I went, oh my god, this is never ever going to be done. I remember that feeling. I remember I went in, I was a very young nursing unit manager, I was pregnant with my first baby.
And I went in to work on a Saturday to try and sort my office out so that it was all nice and cleaned out for the person that was going to come and cover for me while I was on. And it was sorting out stuff that would belong to previous people that had owned the office, things that I always wanted to get done. And I remember like I did the whole day on a Saturday.
And I had this realization that it was never all going to be done because I was there. People were asking me questions. They wanted things when they didn't help and support. And I remember that day so clearly, it was more than 21 years ago that the baby's now 21. Yeah. But I Remember, learning that day like this is never done. And I think this when we strive for in healthcare, like a day when we can take the foot off the pedal and relax because we can put a big bow around something and it's done tick.
It's actually never coming. Wow. That is actually like I feel that in my gut. Like I really feel that like it's never done. I don't know if you haven't lived that experience in healthcare, if you can truly understand that. And I think it's an alternative perspective that you offer people. And I don't think people in healthcare get around thinking that it will ever be done.
No. This is the realization that actually it's never going to be done. And one of the things that I really help people with is getting really clear about what's important to them, getting really clear about what the priorities are because you can't do everything.
Yeah. And getting clear about what the boundaries are for you around working hours because there are, you know, many leaders in the system that were absolutely unsustainable hours to try and get through the volume of work. So that if I'm packing all of that and the beliefs that can sit alongside that I have to do X to do a good job and you know, I just need to keep going till X is done. And priorities being really important.
You know, in healthcare, we add all the time. We add new things and new meetings and new policies and new reporting requirements and like, and never take away. So a lot of my clients are like, I just don't have any time. I don't have any capacity. I'm not making good decisions. You know, we do some work around what we can take away?
What can be delegated? What can be deleted? What can be different so that there is some time and space? Yeah. Because you can't just keep adding. No. And I imagine in that place, it's also very hard to have a sense that you're doing a good job because you can often feel like you're never achieving everything you want to.
So I imagine that's also hard is what good looks like. Yep. And if you're in an organization where everyone works till midnight and sends emails at 1am, is that how it has to be? And also, I've lost my train of thought. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think we're on the same page that yeah, this idea of yeah, it's really hard to know not just when it's enough, but also how you can feel good about what you've achieved, right? That sense of it.
Yeah. So how much do you think your lived experience of this has an impact on two things? I want to ask you two things on the delivery of the work and the connection you build with your coaches, the teams that you coach, the people who you facilitate, but also in the sales process. Like how do you see your experience playing out in those two spaces? Yeah.
So I think the point that I lost briefly before was this concept that in healthcare, many leaders I work with have diaries that are back to back from day to five or six p.m. Like literally back to back meetings. Yeah. And then they have to start their day of work responding to the email, you know, doing the doing and preparing for the next day of back to back meetings.
And that is the system is unsustainable in so many ways, but learning how to navigate that in a way that feels right is an important work. I will answer your question about, you know, how my background helps. I think with clients, there's kind of an instant rapport when you bring somebody into your organization. If they're familiar with an organization like yours, and the types of people, the types of humans that exist in that organization, I think that's really triceless.
I know other executive coaches that work in healthcare and some things
just don't land. And that can get in the way of building trust and rapport. Yeah. I think in one
on one sessions with clients, they don't have to explain to me that the ED was full yesterday. And so they didn't get to do all these things. And they went home late, they haven't slept well and they're rocking up to session today.
And they're frazzled. Yeah. Yeah, you just get that. I get that. Lots of the things that clients bring to sessions are about politics in healthcare, big like capital P politics and small P politics. I bet. And navigating that and how to maintain relationships and still get things done when there's different types of politics at play. We spend quite a lot of time talking about that.
And I think when you've worked in the system, you know what those politics look and feel like. And I think they look different in different industries. Yeah. I'm imagining also, Emma, that there's because you've walked that off, like people can be very honest about the down the hard part without feeling like they need to almost have a disclaimer. It's like, I know this is important work. Like I'm really lucky that I get to it. But they can actually probably just be themselves because you get that. Like you're not. Yeah. There's no judgment because you've walked that path.
Yeah. And I think sometimes clients will say, have did you ever feel like that? Does that is that something that you've felt before? And it's not very coaching. But often people will say, what would you do?
Or have you experienced this? And what did you do? So I think that helps to I think it helps to hit the ground running with clients. Yeah. We don't need to explain if I'm doing work with a hospital, you don't have to explain what that particular department does or how it operates. Yeah. Or the dynamics that exist between this department and this department. Yeah. Yeah.
This profession and that profession. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it helps to hit the ground running with organizations. And I think with when one on one work with leaders, we can get to the end of a first session and we're already deep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. It doesn't take long. And I think that's really rewarding because there's no kind of lost time. We know we have a number of sessions together or a number of months together. And to be able to hit the ground running from day one session one. I think that's really beneficial for clients. Yeah. And so then on the other side of this is there's probably a different conversation that happens with an organization at that sales phase. Like how does it help to have that contextual deep experience?
It's very similar. So often when I'm talking with an organization about some work that they're looking to commission, they'll often say to me, do you have any experience of whatever the big challenge is that they're trying to bring somebody in to help with.
Often I have, I haven't always, right? I haven't, you know, haven't done everything. No, far from it. But I often have or I have a similar experience that I could draw upon. And I think often it happens that I know someone in an organization that I'm supporting.
So that can be helpful to sort of so things are a bit warm already. And I think if you're a health care organization and you're commissioning someone to come in and support you with something, if you don't need to brief them on how you work, what your current challenges are, like a lot of that is just given.
Yeah. Let's make things quick. Yeah. And I'm sort of capturing a few themes here. And it sounds like there is this theme of contextual knowledge and experience making it quicker,
right, quicker or or deeper.
But the other piece of it is the trust that comes from this, which is trust, not just that you've walked the path beforehand, either from the organization or the individual, but I guess the credibility, the reliability and the intimacy I'm using the pillars from David Meister's trust equation here.
But there's that combination of, I think, yeah, the credibility that you've done this work and the intimacy that comes from you having like that deep visceral emotional understanding, not just the cognitive understanding. I think, yeah, those are hugely important. Yeah, no, I think that when you say it like that, it sounds, it kind of hits the nail on the head, I think. Yeah.
And I talk about this idea of leaning into our unfair advantages when it comes to choosing these sectors that we work in. And one of the biggest unfair advantages we have is this professional background that we've come from for exactly those reasons that you've spoken to.
Actually, the other one that's coming up and I think you've touched on it a bit is, well, also there's this huge existing network that you've got. Have you found that's been where a lot of opportunities have come from for you?
Yeah, absolutely. Many of them, particularly in the very early days. So, yeah, I've had work from people that I worked with like 20 years ago. Yeah, I love that. You know, really, really long time ago, like I was a very junior leader in a hospital then.
I've had people that used to work for me, and want to work with me in a coaching. Oh, what a testament to your leadership, by the way. Yeah, that's really special. And again, there's, again, you know, session one, hitting the ground running, like there's already relationship there. I've had work from people that I used to work for, which is lovely as well, because there's that trust there already.
And people I used to work with and other people that have were distantly connected, new of. So, yeah, I think it definitely helps. And now I have clients that just appear, and they've been following on LinkedIn for a while. And so, but that's different, right? I don't actually know them. Some of them say they feel like they know me from love it in content, which is great.
But that's different. Yeah. But I think it actually is different, but it's a follow the bouncing ball kind of thing. Now, I will also say that Emma is a LinkedIn guru and does help healthcare leaders work on their LinkedIn presence. But what I would like to ask, Emma, how have you used LinkedIn to amplify this unfair advantage? Like how are you using it to connect with a healthcare leaders organization?
Yeah. So I was quite lucky that I had already built quite a fairly large LinkedIn network before I started this work. So I used to work in a statewide role where I would get to meet with lots of leaders across the system.
And I used to connect with them on LinkedIn afterwards, like, not for any business purpose. I certainly never thought I would have my own business. So it was sort of not connected to anything. But I guess it's just a way of keeping in touch. I've always really loved healthcare careers and sort of people's journeys. It's always whenever I've met someone new in healthcare, be like, but where did where did you start?
And how did you get here? I've always found that quite fascinating. So LinkedIn was I was enjoying LinkedIn already. And so the way I use LinkedIn now is that it's quite having a niche or an industry that you're particularly wanting to work with makes it really easy to find people in that industry on LinkedIn.
The search function in LinkedIn is really powerful. And I put out content on LinkedIn regularly. It's generally aimed at people in healthcare. I connect with people that work in healthcare. I follow healthcare organizations on LinkedIn.
And I engage with healthcare leaders and healthcare organizations on LinkedIn and keep up to date with the industry on LinkedIn. And I think LinkedIn makes that so easy when you have a focus. Yeah, I love that. And I can just see and knowing your journey, like the how they all connect with each other, right? How the networking you do.
Sorry. What I really hear and I see in your journey, I mean, is that real connection. And the fact that we actually can't pull apart these three pieces, right, which is our network,
the way we're showing up in our marketing and the our sales activity, right, through using our network. And all of that for you is connected to this professional background that you have and this idea of service into healthcare. So I think it's amazing.
What do you, when you work with healthcare organizations and they tell you about what they want or what they need when they're looking for a coach or a facilitator like, what are you hearing?
Interesting question. I think predominantly what I hear, the kind of the chatter in my brain that goes on while I'm, you know, having a briefing from a healthcare organization is it's so familiar.
Yeah. Yeah. It's, I think when I first started this work, I thought that I would be being asked to do things that maybe I wasn't qualified for or I wouldn't have value to add. But the reality is that they're the things that I used to deal with on a daily basis as a manager.
Yeah. I've been asked to come in and support organizations post external reviews when things have gone wrong and people are reeling from that. I've been asked to come in and support organizations when teams aren't functioning as optimally as people would like. Kind of. And the humans are suffering in that. Yeah.
And as is performance and all the other flow on bits and pieces or following the bouncing ball, as you would say, Ellie. Yeah. And so I think the things that people bring me into work on are things that I'm very familiar with that I used to, you know, manage for teams in my career.
And so, yeah, sometimes the chatter is, oh my God, we're still dealing with these same problems. Yeah. But they do feel very different from, it feels different for me being on the outside now than it did being on the inside because it's in a nice way. It's not my problem. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm happy to buy in and help. Yeah. Yeah.
I have a new perspective to add, which I think is the value for an organization. Yeah. And I think for coaches listening and with any sort of professional background, I can see how it applies, right?
Because you come in, you're going to hear these familiar stories, these familiar challenges. And rather than, whereas if you were in a completely different context, it might trigger more of that
fear of, oh, I don't know, I don't have it done. This might be out of my comfort zone. It might be out of my capability zone.
This way, you can feel pretty confident that you don't have to be the expert, but you are, you understand the experience. And that's going to make you, I was going to say better as a coach, but I'm going to take that back because I don't think we need to be the expert
in order to be great as coaches, but it's going to make it easier to sell for one.
And it's going to make it easier to build trust quickly. So that, I guess the message is lean into those professional backgrounds. And Emma is a fantastic example of how and why to do that. Emma, if you had any tips for coaches who are starting their businesses, you know, related to what we've been talking about today, what would you say? Yeah, I would definitely urge you to consider or reconsider if you've already considered it, leaning in to what you already know. Yeah. I would encourage you to become best friends with LinkedIn.
Yes. And if you're a healthcare leader, by the way, listening in who would like some help with LinkedIn, definitely look Emma up. Cheers. Amazing. Thank you, Ellie. The, the, yes, nerdy hobby. And I think also don't underestimate, and I'll you this, you say this all the time, Ellie, but don't underestimate the power of your existing network and reconnecting with people that the piece of work that I talked about came from somebody I worked with 20 years ago.
Like I never expected that. And so, yeah, you can, you don't have to be pushy, you don't have to be salesy or icky, but if you just tell people what you're doing, they then have the opportunity to
be interested and engage with you. Yeah, absolutely.
That's so helpful. And I just want to reiterate that point again and again, people say it's not even necessarily the people you worked with in your most immediate role who come to you with work. It's the people from 10, 15, 20 years ago, who are seeing you in a new light. And so they're bringing the positive, I guess the positive feelings and experience that they had towards you, but they're using it and it's looking like trust in you in this new role.
So yeah, I think it's an amazing opportunity. Emma, that has been so helpful. I've loved this deep dive on this topic and I really, I do know that it's going to be super inspiring for a lot of coaches and also for people in health care who are in need of a coach, definitely look, Emma, Emma, if people want to get in touch with you, what is their best way to do that? Linked in. So Emma Clark, Malika is my name on LinkedIn.
I also have a website which is EmpoweringTimmons.com. We've got 80. Bruno will put those both in the show notes. Thanks Emma, I'm sure we'll have you back again,but thanks for coming on today. Thanks so much for having me, Ellie. It's been fun.
